IN THIS INTERVIEW, Publisher of NewIssues Magazine, George Onmonya Daniel, spoke to Hamrat Lawal of CODE, who confirmed that most of the COVID 19 monies went into Real Estate.
NEWISSUES: A couple of years ago I saw you on television, I am not sure but it’s either Channels Television on AIT, narrating how you followed some money and some people in the Jonathan’s administration even bribed you one hundred million naira but you took off without taking the money. I was quite impressed by this young man. Then shortly after Goodluck Jonathan left government I saw you with President Buhari taking photos in New York. That was when I posted the photo on Facebook and picked interest in what you do. If you follow monies being siphoned by government, you shouldn’t be seen hobnobbing with government.
HAMRAT: I was in New York on the invitation of the United Nation. I arrived New York a week before the heads of states arrived. I was involved and attending series of different events, speaking at several of these events. President Buhari interestingly got information about what young people were doing. Olumide was there, and Esther. So, we were speaking and our voice was loud. Even at various side events, the Ekiti State governor, who is Chairman of the Nigerian Governor’s Forum, even mentioned my name and some of the things we had been doing, I was not in the hall but in some other event in New York, he was talking and referencing our work and what we have been doing in New York. So, the Minister for Environment told…, I think she was the one who briefed Buhari. Buhari said he wanted to see us. Interestingly that night we were at Esther’s house. Esther works for UN so she has an apartment in New York. In the evenings we go to Esther’s house, she makes us tea and we would just be watching Neflix and gisting. We all received a text. When we received the text, we started laughing. We were all laughing when we saw it and it says the president is meeting you by 10 Oclock. Guess what, we got there by 10:30, because for us, yes, it’s great to meet your leader and talk about issues, but it wasn’t like we called for the meeting. We even got there late. You can ask Esther or Olumide.
We met with the president and the conversation was centered around farmers/herder’s crisis, lake chad region, and we asked him a few questions. And he made commitment there that when they come back to Nigeria, they are going to plant a few millions of trees. If you check social media, we have been asking them. Because when they came back, they set up a committee under the Minister of Environment, and we kept asking after the first meeting of the committee what has happened, what’s happening to these trees? So, it’s not like we went to wine and dine with the president.
By the way you know I have also met with Jonathan. I have met with Jonathan. I have met with Obasanjo. I would meet with leaders, political leaders, religious leaders, traditional leaders, I meet with them, my role is to bring the voices of the people closer to them and ask them to do this or that and when the make commitments or statement I hold them to account. When you say during Jonathan, we were vocal or maybe most of the campaigns we tracked was, you know 9.2 billion, which was controversial because most Nigerians would not have the lead poisoning case, but during Buhari we have actually tracked even much more than during Jonathan. If you follow our updates on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, there are so many information about what we are tracking.
Now you talked about Covid 19. We are the ones who started following Covid 19 money.
NEWISSUES: What have you discovered so far about the Covid 19 money?
HAMRAT: First, when we started following Covid 19 I was asking questions, I was mostly on TVC. (checks his locker) I am trying to look for the assessment book somewhere. So, I asked NNPC, NNPC announced Thirty Million Dollars. I asked the GMD of NNPC, he responded to me and said this is how the money is coming, this is what they are using for the money. We were the ones who were saying and asking where is the palliative, you know. You say you are doing conditional cash payment, who are you giving conditional cash payments? We did a townhall meeting on AIT, I will try and get the link, I was the one who asked Minister for Humanitarian Affairs ‘how much have you used during lockdown for condition cash…(hesitated)
NEWISSUES…Transfer
HAMRAT: Payment. I didn’t call it transfer because I always refer it as payment, if it’s transfer it is supposed to move from one account to another. But if you count cash and give people it is payment. She now said hundreds of millions of Naira. I now said Madam Minister there is nothing like hundreds of millions of Naira. I now said ‘how much is the money?” She now said twenty billion. She got angry and she left. It’s on record.
During Covid do you know what we did? We went to 98 primary health centers. For Covid vaccines it’s the PHCs that administer, in 15 states. We went and we documented our findings and reports. I have given this report to the National Primary Healthcare Development Agencies, I have written the Vice President, if you follow the news Buhari just inaugurated a committee on healthcare reform, so I wrote President Buhari and issue was there was no civil society representative, I wrote Presi…Vice President, Professor Yemi Osinbajo, and I asked for a meeting. He responded and said he wanted a copy of the report I wanted to give him. This report and this report and I will give you these copies. These are 2020 reports. This is the CTAP, now CTAP is Covid 19 Transparency and Accountability Project, we did this in seven countries, Nigeria, Malawi, Zimbabwe, Liberia, Ghana, everything is here. Now to answer your question directly, and feel free to quote me anywhere, most of Covid 19 money has gone into the Real Estate sector.
NEWISSUES: Real Estate?
HAMRAT: Do your independent findings. Now the city is booming with Real Estate. If you ask these people who are building Real Estates, most people pay cash, and most people got houses during lockdown. They were buying houses cash. And all of these new-new Estates that are springing up. We went to communities, most people didn’t get palliatives, some people who got conditional cash transfer, someone was at the other corner collecting kickback. The school feeding programme again, there was a lot of corruption in it, and you know we documented, we even talked about some of these issues on Twitter, I have spoken about it when I get opportunity on TV and radio. So, the Vice President said we should give him a copy and the they would fix a date to meet us. we have tracking quite a number of these things.
NEWISSUES: So, after the whole tracking what do you do again? You just track and show them and that is all?
HAMRAT: Even before now what we do is that we write petition. We write petitions to EFCC, we write petitions to ICPC, last week my colleagues were at ICPC office to follow up on some of these petitions. And we write the National Assembly. I have written the National Assembly to call for a Public Hearing on Covid 19, because, see, 1n 2022 before election, during campaign, a lot of things would be released about Covid 19 corruption. Or maybe after the elections in 2023. I am saying what do why do we have to wait till then? Civil Society people have evidence and data to back that monies were siphoned. Can the National Assembly call for Public Hearing and bring Minister for Humanitarian Affairs, maybe Minister of Finance, because they are the ones who disbursed money to MDAs. Even the Accountant General…, by the way I wrote the Accountant General, he responded, and told me that they got N35 billion, they have used N30 billion, remaining N5 billion, I have the letter somewhere. I now responded to him and asked him who did you disburse N30 billion to? We even issued a press statement, we asked who they disbursed the N30 billion to and they didn’t respond to it again. But I have spoken about it on TV, AIT and also TVC, because that time we got a lot free airtime from TVC to talk about Covid 19.
NEWISSUES: There is also the case of Covid 19 loans to entrepreneurs…
HAMZRAT: That’s what they call the stimulus package. And again, let me explain to you. I don’t follow every money. I can’t follow every money. So, we focus on healthcare, basic education, access to water and sanitation and hygiene etc, but it also has to do with grassroots, because again when you talk about entrepreneurs, this people have a voice. I try to focus on people who don’t have a voice and then we bring their voice and amplify their voice.
NEWISSUES: I think the problem here is that you people focus more on Twitter and social media.
HAMRAT: I tell people that 95% of my work is offline. In fact, for some reason this time I am in town. Last week, I have been in Bonny Island, travelled in boats, I came back and went to Adamawa, where you have the insurgency problem, I went there. I am planning I am going to Gombe. Usually I am not here, 95% is offline but because of how we engage on social media, which is mostly 5% you would think that’s it. We are on the ground collecting data.
NEWISSUES: But then you people should know what gives government pressure is the conventional media. When they have headlines flashing all over.
HAMRAT: The conventional media is expensive. Radio airtimes, TV, by the way we have Follow The Money Radio in about seven to eight states. Some of the stories we post on social media at carried by every other media. Look at it today, half the stories on social media, especially critical stories, make it to the conventional media headlines today all across the globe, not even Nigeria alone.
